BigBlueBall 2.0 - What does the future hold?

[Jeff]

On Tuesday, July 11th I hosted an informal chat on the future of BigBlueBall. Where do you think we can improve? What ideas do you have? What questions do you have about where BigBlueBall is headed?

The chat, hosted on our BigBlueBall IRC server, featured some of our IRC regulars and a few newcomers as well. The environment was terrific. Everyone got into the spirit, sharing what they felt would help make BigBlueBall a better place.

This is a summary of the topics we discussed.

The Arcade

Jeff: What are some things that would encourage participation?

dvelez1985: more games

Jeff: Ok, I heard more arcade games. On the topic of arcade games the staff has discussed that we probably need to periodically reset the scores, to keep it interesting.

Tigerblade: The games should not be the main attraction. The IM forums should be.

BigBlueBall's Focus on Instant Messaging

ShadowdogMU: What if we expand, remove the "Everything about IM", become a more broad forum? I mean not everything, keep IM as our focus, but add a lot more below it, and promote that.

Jeff: The main focus of BigBlueBall will remain IM, VoIP and related technologies

The Downloads Section

princeG: expand the downloads section of each messenger

dvelez1985: expand the downloads and put more usefull downloads

Jeff: I like the idea of expanding the downloads section, but I'd also like to stick to the good stuff.

Tigerblade: how would we "expand" the downloads section?

ShadowdogMU: add more?

Jeff: there are lots of crappy add-ons out there that I'd rather not promote

princeG: make it more user friendly and update when necessary as they tend to get outdated in a short time

Jeff: As for adding more, we have the ability to do so, but we have only a few contributors. I've heard that we need to expand the downloads (more downloads), update it more frequently, and a more "user friendly" interface.

There was some debate about whether it would be better to link directly to files (like the Yahoo Messenger setup program) or to download pages (like the official Yahoo! Messenger download page). Linking to the pages is easier to maintain, because they tend to change less frequently than the files. We didn't reach a final decision on this, and probably need further discussion.

EvilSeph: a review accompanied by download description

Jeff: Reviews are a great idea, I think. And it's something that can be done right now

Welcoming New Members

EvilSeph: We being entirely honest here? If we are, we need a more friendly and welcoming CC team. You make one little mistake and they get offended. They're the CC team, they should be able to deal with it in a calm and sensible manner.

Tigerblade: well... with the CC team... i honestly havent' noticed many *offending* posts.

princeG: there arent really offending posts

Jeff: maybe I need to spend a little more time in there

Tigerblade: i think i haven't yet seen many (if any) CC staffers be overly harsh or rude to new members.

Jeff: I've had feedback from some people that they felt BBB was too clique-ish

Tigerblade: if anything, it's generally been when someone posts an introduction where they use outlandish colors and sizes, etc.

EvilSeph: but every little time they do it, it hurts BBB's image. they represent BBB beyond any other staff member, bar yourself.

Clint: Not to sound rude, but to a newcomer, that does make sense. The first thing I though was "Wow, there are a lot of staff groups on here!"

ShadowdogMU: Amen

princeG: i think they are very friendly, but maybe, MAYBE, sometimes staff gets to overeact on some peoples introductions and tend to move it to review requested or just talk about it

Tigerblade: then there's generally a mild mention of 'please use normal text'

princeG: just lighten up on that

Jeff: I have seen and heard some attitude. We have to remember that someone new doesn't know the site or what's permissible or not, and give them a little slack

Tigerblade: sometimes, *some* people do come across as having a bit of ... attitude. but it's usually in response to a provocation.it's generally not just spontaneously mean.

Jeff: I will spend more time in the Introductions section, and work with the CC team to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Tigerblade: well... true. that i have noticed... when people reply to old topics, some people have responded unnecessarily harshly. but even if you're a "noob" you have to notice things like timestamps, especially when they're displayed above *every* post.so when the last post in a thread was over a year ago...

Jeff: yes, but there is nothing inherently wrong with replying to an old post. if we don't want people to reply, we should close the discussion

Tigerblade: or giving "advice" to someone who asked for it over a year ago

EvilSeph: it was answering the exact topic of the thread

ShadowdogMU: Yes, but I feel sometimes people go through ALL the old posts, and be like, "Hey! Here is a topic about a similiar problem I have" and thus they hijack the thread

EvilSeph: they said their asl.

Clint: From what I have noticed, many old-post-revivers are something small that is barely relevant to the topic.

EvilSeph: as was requested in the thread. it doesn't matter if the poster is banned. it's not grounds for a 3 pronged attack against a member.

Jeff: agreed. none of this is a reason to attach someone new. so... we need to revisit the process, and remind ourselves that we were new too at one time

Tigerblade: what do you suggest in regards to the resurrected post thing then, Jeff? have someone tactfully explain that the post is really old, then lock it? (when appropriate to lock?) if it's a useful post, just leave it. like the "behind the posters" thread is OLD, but it's still going. which is fine.

Jeff: I personally have no problem with resurrecting an old post, as long as the reply is relevant. if it is not relevant, the topic can be split. don't beat up on the poor newbie. just split the topic, reply with an explanation

Developing More Tutorials

dvelez1985: can we get some forum of programers who want to dedicate their time in making tutorials. kind of a basic in vb and how it works with most protocols like ymsg

Jeff: it's a good point. BigBlueBall is not just a forum
Jeff: we used to publish tutorials more regularly

dvelez1985: you have made some tutorials
dvelez1985: for instant the psi thingy was good

ShadowdogMU: We could do tutorials on common things, or even complicated fun things, like that psi thing

Jeff: great ideas dvelez and shadowdog

Clint: I think that to start, there should be some tutorials showing new users how to get around the forums. Some users are not used to forums (or vBulletin), and may need some help getting around.

Tigerblade: ok... so any sort of list of tutorial ideas?

ShadowdogMU: We can make video tutorials, but then again, video might be bad to dialuppers

Jeff: I think there could be lots of tutorials. Short little things that a lot of people don't know how to do

dvelez1985: hey a tutorial on internet ediquet

Clint: I wrote one on XChat (an IRC client).

Jeff: I like this tutorial idea... and I'll post a topic calling for suggested topics

A BigBlueBall Makeover?

ShadowdogMU: I would be happy to work on designing a new BBB

BShink21: I agree with Brock that BBB needs a facelift

Jeff: as for a redesign...

EvilSeph: I think the website is un-user friendly

Jeff: I think the site needs some redesign as well
Jeff: the menus are confusing

Tigerblade: here are my thoughts on a "redesign"
Tigerblade: the menus can get a bit confusing at times.
Tigerblade: not necessarily to me, cause i've been around for who knows how long.

EvilSeph: amen ^^

Jeff: yes, we have too many
Jeff: I completely agree
Jeff: it sucks

ShadowdogMU: and I personally do judge websites by how well they look, just throwing that out there

princeG: we might not get confused, but newbies can

Tigerblade: instead of "IM Basics"... maybe there have a link to "IM Centers"
Tigerblade: and from "IM Centers" you can get to any of the other centers.

princeG: the older menu structure was easier and more good looking, imho

Jeff: princeG, you mean the old vertical menu with fly-outs?

princeG: yes

Jeff: I agree... what we have now for navigation sucks
Jeff: we who visit all the time might have gotten used to it
Jeff: but newbies could easily be confused and lost
Jeff: so this is a "must do" in my book

ShadowdogMU: Jeff, I would be glad to help facelife the site, graphically of course :P

The Welcome Email

xerraire: Jeff, when people join, what do they get in their email?
xerraire: A confirmation email or something like that?

Jeff: yes xerraire
Jeff: they get two emails
Jeff: a confirmation email with activation code
Jeff: and a welcome email

xerraire: On the welcome email...what exactly does it have?

Jeff: here's what it says:
Jeff: "Dear (new member),
Jeff: Thanks for registering at BigBlueBall Forums! We are glad you have chosen to be part of our commmunity and hope you enjoy your stay.
Jeff: All the best,
Jeff: BigBlueBall Forums

xerraire: Oh Jeff, that doesn't seem to be enough in my opinion
xerraire: and that is something that is easy to correct

Jeff: Xerraire: What would you suggest?

xerraire: Besides a very friendly welcome
xerraire: links to various important places on your site
xerraire: is there a rules or FAQ section

Jeff: Yes, in fact there is

xerraire: the news
xerraire: anywhere you think that would lead them to feel

Tommy: Jeff with xerraire's idea how about, a section to introduce the mentors, advisors and the admin

xerraire: like they know where they are going and what to do

Jeff: Great suggestion, and pretty easy to change!

Contests

princeG: remember the song and its story contest, coulf we revive that or something similiar.. i think it was very good

Jeff: ah a contest
Jeff: another good suggestion.

EvilSeph: we could hold contests on IRC
EvilSeph: but I need TCL.

princeG: i had fun with that contest

EvilSeph: a trivia contest etc.
EvilSeph: or you win something for contributing trivia questions.

At this point, the hour was up. I edited liberally, but tried to capture the basic topics that were shared. Thanks to everyone who joined the chat, and my apologies if I've removed your comments. Feel free to add to my notes below.

Some of these items were good ideas and can be quickly implemented. Others will require further investigation, thoughtful design and discussion. But I want you to know I appreciated all the feedback, and will do my best to incorporate it into whatever BigBlueBall becomes.

Consider this your invitation to join in the conversation. If you have a question about BigBlueBall or a suggestion for improving the site, share it right here.

[Tea Granny]

Drop the "no colors/no bold/no fancy"text "rule" in the introductions section, and just tell the newcomer that color/bold/fancy text is only used in moderation in the rest of the forum areas.

Instead of telling a newcomer not to post "that particular question" here, tell them exactly where to post that question. Simpy say; "Try posting that question here.... xxx." (some say that, some don't)

Tutorials! Yes! Videos-no! Just use an image to illustrate the point. Show someone exactly what it would look like.

I have read the faqs five times now and I still don't know how to use the tags properly! I would like to see a tutorial using images on:

-use of each of the tags... post/thread/other website addresses/etc.
-use of all the "buttons" on each post... rep/quote/quick reply/etc.
-everything related to posting/using the forum here at BBB

Yes a lot of work, but most of it is already done, maybe you just need to add images to text you already have in the faqs.

You may want to consider removing the "rep" from the "off topic" forums. I don't think people should be judged good or bad by posting someone else's work. Perhaps newcomers may find the "off topic" section the only place to post new topics and if someone gives them a bad rep, they may end up discouraged and not want to stay here at BBB. I was under the impression that a bad rep was supposed to be for "deliberately posting false and misleading information," and that is not what is happening in the off topic area. I read that someone here got a bad rep for liking a "color" of all things!

There really isn't much here to post on if you don't have technical answers to the questions, so anyone who joins (without technical expertise) will need an area other than "technical" things to hang around for. Perhaps you should simply merge all the "off topic" topics into one "off topic" category, and everything that isn't IM or Computer related can be posted there - one simple place.

For that matter, why are all the topics broken up in to so many smaller areas? Why not just have one "MSN" area and all questions get asked there? I still have a tough time figuring out which "sub forum" some questions should be asked in, or which sub forum I need to search for the answers. It may make sense to all the people who have been here for a while, but when you are new here there are far too many choices to sort through to figure out where you are going and what you are doing.

The introduction part of this forum was seriously stressing when I first joined. There should be a more clear description/definition of what "an introduction" should consist of. Give someone who is new an idea on what to put in to their introduction. That may also be a good time to explain the no color/no bold/no fancy font rule if you intend to keep it in.

Lastly, I would have to agree with EvilSeph when he said the staff doesn't seem "friendly or inviting." I feel I was very lucky, and extremely well treated (thank you Sarah) but it does often "appear" otherwise.

[Tigerblade]

Originally Posted by Tea Granny

Drop the "no colors/no bold/no fancy"text "rule" in the introductions section, and just tell the newcomer that color/bold/fancy text is only used in moderation in the rest of the forum areas.

Sorry, but that wouldn't be such a great idea. The reason we have that rule is that people don't tend to listen to suggestions like that. It's hard to read huge, uppercase, purple Comic Sans text, even if you have good eyesight. We try to correct any posts that have such horrible formatting, but it's better if everyone knows that's not how posts are to be made.

Instead of telling a newcomer not to post "that particular question" here, tell them exactly where to post that question. Simpy say; "Try posting that question here.... xxx." (some say that, some don't)

i always try to find an appropriate section for people to repost a question in... i'm not aware of any staffers who reply and don't do this.

Tutorials! Yes! Videos-no! Just use an image to illustrate the point. Show someone exactly what it would look like.

Tutorials are an excellent idea, for several different subjects... hopefully we can get some in the works soon. It's being discussed among the staff right now as to what should be written up.

I have read the faqs five times now and I still don't know how to use the tags properly! I would like to see a tutorial using images on...

-use of each of the tags... post/thread/other website addresses/etc.
-use of all the "buttons" on each post... rep/quote/quick reply/etc.
-everything related to posting/using the forum here at BBB

Yes a lot of work, but most of it is already done, maybe you just need to add images to text you already have in the faqs.

Use of the tags - available at the bottom the page when you submit a comment, via the text that says "vB code is On"
Reputation system.
Posting/using the forum... we're thinking about working on this one.

Perhaps you should simply merge all the "off topic" topics into one "off topic" category, and everything that isn't IM or Computer related can be posted there - one simple place.

Meh, except there's a good deal of posts in each of those subforums, so it's simpler to break them up. It's much easier to find what you're looking for instead of sifting through the hundreds of posts in the main category.

For that matter, why are all the topics broken up in to so many smaller areas? Why not just have one "MSN" area and all questions get asked there? I still have a tough time figuring out which "sub forum" some questions should be asked in, or which sub forum I need to search for the answers.

I actually agree with this one. For example, in the AIM forum (for which I'm advisor), I don't see the purpose of the subsections "Buddy Icons & Smileys" or Away Messages"... maybe that's just me.

[Tea Granny]

This could become a giant circle of nothing; you want change, but you don't want to change anything.

If you detest the colors/bold/fancy text so much then why not remove the option from BBB posting all together. If someone can't access it, they can't use it. Then no one will get dissed for using it. And before you give me the "they're used for emphasis speech," why not just use "tags" for emphasis. There are bold/color/font tags yes/no?

That whole color/bold/fancy rule made no sense to me when I first got here. I honestly thought this place was run by a bunch of old timers who were simply clinging to the old "internet etiquette" standards. As time wore on I noticed how much easier everything is to read if it all looks the same.

You are going to have to do something about this particular problem; it appears to be a bone of contention with the staff here. Either lighten up on the new offenders, remove the option to use these features, or find a better way to explain the rule.

Just telling me that VB code is on, doesn't show me how to use tags. I am just not "getting" the printed instructions. It won't matter how many times you repeat these instructions, until I see pictures it won't sink in.

Every staff member here already knows how to use all the functions, features, and rules of BBB. If you want new comers to hang around, you are going to have to take their opinions in to account.

There are probably more people out there right now who are new to computers than there are old timers who are familiar with computers and the related "etiquette" that goes along with it.

Us "newbies" got into computers at a time when everything PC is filled with colors, animations, and very "lax" "internet etiquette." I, for one, am getting tired of being jumped on for every mistake I make and then having to apologize for something I didn't even know was wrong.

Everyone who has been using PC's from the beginning is now considered "the old guard," and us "newbies" look to you with reverence. Wow! You know all this stuff! That's amazing! But every time we reach out for help from the old guard and they jump on us; they don't come across as knowledgable masters, they come across as pompous and arrogant. Imagine how you feel when you walk in to a new store looking for a particular item, only to have a clerk there tell you to "read the signs above the aisles." It is not much help, and it certainly wasn't very friendly. Are you going to go shop somewhere else?

All the divisions in the forum categories here might make sense to you, but to someone new it just adds more stuff to filter through to get to what you want. If I go to a gaming forum, those are broken up in to the individual games. Not "weapons for that game," or "upgrades for that game;" it is one simple category. And yes, some of those game categories have huge numbers of postings, but it is easier to get to where you want to go.

[Tigerblade]

I'm sorry if I've come across as pompous or anything like that. If I've come across that way, I apologize sincerely. I'll attempt to explain my opinions about certain parts of your post as best I can; please do understand that these are merely my opinions, nothing more. They do not necessarily represent the general consensus of the BBB staff, and I don't claim that my opinions are always perfectly accurate.

Originally Posted by Tea Granny

If you detest the colors/bold/fancy text so much then why not remove the option from BBB posting all together. If someone can't access it, they can't use it. Then no one will get dissed for using it. And before you give me the "they're used for emphasis speech," why not just use "tags" for emphasis. There are bold/color/font tags yes/no?

Well, yes, there are such tags for fonts and colors. That's what people are using to change the color and font of their posts. I have absolutely no problem when people use these tags to place emphasis on certain parts of their posts that need to be have special attention drawn to them. It's only when the whole post is formatted in some giant pink font that I start to get irritated (and I know I'm not alone on this). Colors and fonts are a valuable option when used properly... it's the improper use of these that is the problem.

Just telling me that VB code is on, doesn't show me how to use tags. I am just not "getting" the printed instructions. It won't matter how many times you repeat these instructions, until I see pictures it won't sink in.

This part I'm not sure how to help you with. There's a fairly extensive list of all the tags with examples of how to use them and what they do. My mention of the text "vB Code is On" was simply pointing to how to access that page. For this, I honestly don't think pictures would be necessary or appropriate - it would just be pictures of text. What would you like to see pictures of that isn't covered in that list?

Imagine how you feel when you walk in to a new store looking for a particular item, only to have a clerk there tell you to "read the signs above the aisles." It is not much help, and it certainly wasn't very friendly. Are you going to go shop somewhere else?

Personally, I'd laugh at myself for not realizing that I didn't see the big sign that says "BREAD" before asking the clerk where the bread aisle was. Think of it from the clerk's point of view. All day, you have to point out to people where the bread aisle is, even though there was a sign put up that says "BREAD" specifically so people could find it themselves. I do try to guide members (at least, in the AIM section or with AIM-related problems) towards a more appropriate place for their questions rather than just telling them to read the signs, but... sometimes I have to wonder how hard it is to figure out that the best place to ask a question about AIM is in our AIM forum? Why would the Yahoo forum be a good place to ask about problems with AIM? Just a rhetorical question.

Like I've said, I'm not trying to sound pompous or haughty or anything of the sort. I just mean to show that there's only so much the staff can do to help people. We try to guide members around, offering assistance where needed and where we think we can provide it. The problem is that not everyone is willing to try to help themselves at all; some members expect to have their hands held through everything, and a volunteer staff can't always do that. I realize that not everyone is at the same level of experience; that's what a forum like this is for -- people sharing knowledge and helping others out. Sometimes it just gets hard to be all-tolerant and all-helpful.

That's just me and my opinions though. Take them as you wish. Just remember I mean no one any insults or harm by my comments. These are just my views on what you've brought up.

[Jeff]

Tea Granny, thanks so much for sticking your neck out! I'm not going to chop it off (I promise)... I'm going to hug you! This kind of feedback is invaluable. Anyone who's been a regular on the site for more than a few months really forgets how confusing and difficult it can be for a newcomer. We have a lot of new members who sign up and haven't ever been on any forum before -- that is pretty green! So your feedback is worth it's weight in gold. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Tea Granny

Drop the "no colors/no bold/no fancy"text "rule" in the introductions section, and just tell the newcomer that color/bold/fancy text is only used in moderation in the rest of the forum areas.

I agree. There is no bigger turn-off then using the available tools and being immediately chastized for doing so. Sure, we ask people to use them only for emphasis in the Forum Policies FAQ, but most people don't read this (honestly, I don't either at other sites I visit).

Personally, I like the consistent look for easier readability. Which might suggest that I remove some of the formatting controls. I might do that, but in the meantime, I like your suggestion of letting the newcomer post as they wish, and rather than chastising them, simply welcome them and add a subtle, soft message at the end asking them to use special fonts and colors sparingly... with a link to the FAQ.

Originally Posted by Tea Granny

Instead of telling a newcomer not to post "that particular question" here, tell them exactly where to post that question. Simpy say; "Try posting that question here.... xxx." (some say that, some don't)

I usually go a step further. I just move their post to the correct forum. Sometimes I'll send them a PM (a recent change I made allows brand new members to receive PMs) to let them know why I moved it. But no point in embarrassing them in public over something simple. Usually they get the hang of things by their second or third post.

Originally Posted by Tea Granny

Tutorials! Yes! Videos-no! Just use an image to illustrate the point. Show someone exactly what it would look like.

I have read the faqs five times now and I still don't know how to use the tags properly! I would like to see a tutorial using images on:

-use of each of the tags... post/thread/other website addresses/etc.
-use of all the "buttons" on each post... rep/quote/quick reply/etc.
-everything related to posting/using the forum here at BBB

Yes a lot of work, but most of it is already done, maybe you just need to add images to text you already have in the faqs.

I agree that more pictures would be helpful. We haven't done much with the FAQs to customize them, and this could be considerably improved. I agree that doing images would be good, but I might also create a smartly-sized Flash video for the MTV generation.

Originally Posted by Tea Granny

You may want to consider removing the "rep" from the "off topic" forums. I don't think people should be judged good or bad by posting someone else's work. Perhaps newcomers may find the "off topic" section the only place to post new topics and if someone gives them a bad rep, they may end up discouraged and not want to stay here at BBB. I was under the impression that a bad rep was supposed to be for "deliberately posting false and misleading information," and that is not what is happening in the off topic area. I read that someone here got a bad rep for liking a "color" of all things!

Hmmm... this is an interesting idea, but I don't think our forum software supports that. Although the story you shared about the person who got a bad rep for liking a color... that concerns me. Maybe what we need is to include a little paragraph in the My BigBlueBall section where it shows your latest reputation comments, something like this:

"The reputation system provides a way for other members to recognize your outstanding posts with postive reputation points. It also allows them to use "negative reputation" points to warn someone who has posted inappropriate or deliberately misleading information.

If you have questions or concerns about any reputation points (positive or negative) that you've received, contact us."

Another solution would be to remove the ability to post any negative points at all. We still would have the "report this post" option. The problem with this is that our forum software doesn't support turning negative points off.

Originally Posted by Tea Granny

There really isn't much here to post on if you don't have technical answers to the questions, so anyone who joins (without technical expertise) will need an area other than "technical" things to hang around for. Perhaps you should simply merge all the "off topic" topics into one "off topic" category, and everything that isn't IM or Computer related can be posted there - one simple place.

For that matter, why are all the topics broken up in to so many smaller areas? Why not just have one "MSN" area and all questions get asked there? I still have a tough time figuring out which "sub forum" some questions should be asked in, or which sub forum I need to search for the answers. It may make sense to all the people who have been here for a while, but when you are new here there are far too many choices to sort through to figure out where you are going and what you are doing.

The flip-side of this is that if you're looking for information on add-ons, or display pics, etc., and everything is in one big forum (as it used to be), then it becomes more difficult for people who like to browse vs. search. I've tried it both ways, and this has been working pretty well. Having said that, I'm always open to changing things. If the consensus is to pool forums rather than use subforums, we can always do that. Going the other direction is a lot of work, but pooling them is pretty easy. Before we make any changes in that area, I'd want to get more feedback from a larger cross-section of members first.

Originally Posted by Tea Granny

The introduction part of this forum was seriously stressing when I first joined. There should be a more clear description/definition of what "an introduction" should consist of. Give someone who is new an idea on what to put in to their introduction. That may also be a good time to explain the no color/no bold/no fancy font rule if you intend to keep it in.

Excellent point. One of the ideas presented in the chat was expanding the Welcome email. This would be one place where we could do that. Another idea: create a "fill-in-the-blanks" introduction form (optional, of course) that would ask a series of questions (perhaps some fun or funny ones) and then post the results as a new introduction. That would make it much easier, I think. What do others think?

Originally Posted by Tea Granny

Lastly, I would have to agree with EvilSeph when he said the staff doesn't seem "friendly or inviting." I feel I was very lucky, and extremely well treated (thank you Sarah) but it does often "appear" otherwise.

I hear this from people from time-to-time. My own experience is different, and I don't see a problem when scanning the responses. I guess the best thing I can suggest is that we all use positive motivators to reward the good responses, and if you see a problematic response, particularly from a staff member, please let me know. It's impossible for me to read every topic and reply here, but I really do care how people feel when they join, and want them to feel welcome. So if you see something that looks anything less than welcoming, please let me know. I think that's a better solution than posting negative reputation or getting into a flame war in the forums.

Phew! Great discussion... now my fingers are tired!

[Spike]

Well dang. I go on vacation, come back, and there's this big mess about upgrades. So much for vacation.

I need time to think this all over and respond all at once, but I wanted to point everyone to look at what BBB has evolved from. We've come a long way, and as much of a mess as this seems, I have faith.

For the record, this has to be, like, BBB 4.0 or 5.0, this isn't the second site change we've been through here.

[AwesomeSauce]

Alright, some interesting discussion going on here. I'll post suggestions when I think of some, but Tea Granny has addressed some minor but notable issues of BBB.

I just have one thing to say about the irritating text-formatting that many newbies tend to use. I figure that computer newbies do not know much about code, let alone forum code, so they use the buttons on the posting interface-type-deal. If we removed the color buttons on that page, then chances are they wouldn't use annoying colors. If they needed to emphasize things in the future, hopefully, they would know at least something about forum code by then, and they would manually type in the appropriate tags to get the job done.

I doubt this will actually happen, but it's just my thought.

[Worshipher]

This thread has been a revelation to me!

Tea Granny [who I first encountered as not a fellow newbie - as she comes across as on this thread - but as "member of the month"] mentions alot of the points that I have had difficulty with when first trying to find my way about the site.

I realise that now I have been antogonistic to some of you who are perhaps dealing with problems that you know about but hav'n't had time to get to grips with.

To comment on a few specific issues [at risk of long post] I think it is a great idea that certain priviledges [by which I mean ink colours if I have read the relevant post right] are withheld from the invariable newbies [like me] who don't realise that a post can be readable without it appearing garish. {Thanx Awesome S}.

Great idea!

As to Jeff's idea of about moving a post to the correct forum without going into debate with the poster I think that this is spot on!

Now I am not agreeing with Jeff just because I have found out he is the boss but I know how difficult it is to know which forum to go to when unsure of yourself and joining a site for the first time jeff even appears to know himself from his dismissal of FAQs [arn't they annoying?!} ...

as to the welcoming newbies but adding gentle reminder I would wait until 4th or 5th post until I tried this...Not just Jeff but we all must know how daunting it can be to join a new site and how easy it is to make the decision that "this isn't the site for me!" based on the most harmless criticism or slightly harsh tone.

This isn't an exxaggeration, I have experienced it personally and I'm sure I'm not alone in experiencing this daunted feeling when riding the web for the first time and thinking of joining a site where yoyu are not sure hoew welcome yours words will be nor how you're knowledge will be assessed in terms of contribution or lack of, on thre site.

Sorry, I seem to have gone on for ages without saying much but I feel like I'm commenting for ever and I want to take a break now and come back to this...time to take the dog for a walk _ Neil!

[Worshipher]

Coming back to this and taking the time to reread slowly all of the posts I realise that every query I have had about this site has already been addressed in one form or another by tea Granny [who my respect for grows everytime log on to this site] and the redoubtable Jeff.

Seems I posted in haste.

Sorry!