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Front Page > Site News & Announcements > Instant Messaging News > VoIP News

Skype encryption stumps police

Posted by Reuters Reuters is offline on 11-24-2007, 03:52 AM  

WIESBADEN - German police are unable to decipher the encryption used in the internet telephone software Skype to monitor calls by suspected criminals and terrorists, Germany's top police officer said.

Skype allows users to make telephone calls over the internet from their computer to other Skype users free of charge.

Law enforcement agencies and intelligence services have used wiretaps since the telephone was invented, but implementing them is much more complex in the modern telecommunications market where the providers are often foreign companies.

"The encryption with Skype telephone software ... creates grave difficulties for us," Joerg Ziercke, president of Germany's Federal Police Office (BKA) told reporters at an annual gathering of security and law enforcement officials.

"We can't decipher it. That's why we're talking about source telecommunication surveillance - that is, getting to the source before encryption or after it's been decrypted."

Experts say Skype and other Voice over internet Protocol (VoIP) calling software are difficult to intercept because they work by breaking up voice data into small packets and switching them along thousands of router paths instead of a constant circuit between two parties, as with a traditional call.

Ziercke said they were not asking Skype to divulge its encryption keys or leave "back doors open" for German and other country's law enforcement authorities.

"There are no discussions with Skype. I don't think that would help," he said, adding that he did not want to harm the competitiveness of any company. "I don't think that any provider would go for that."

Ziercke said there was a vital need for German law enforcement agencies to have the ability to conduct on-line searches of computer hard drives of suspected terrorists using "Trojan horse" spyware.

These searches are especially important in cases where the suspects are aware that their internet traffic and phone calls may be monitored and choose to store sensitive information directly on their hard drives without emailing it.

Spyware computer searches are illegal in Germany, where people are sensitive about police surveillance due to the history of the Nazis' Gestapo secret police and the former East German Stasi.

Ziercke said worries were overblown and that on-line searches would need to be conducted only on rare occasions.

"We currently have 230 proceedings related to suspected Islamists," Ziercke said. "I can imagine that in two or three of those we would like to do this."
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RU Still Down? says
11-25-2007, 12:09 AM
I don't know how true this article can be. First of all Skype is closed source software. There is no way to verify German Police or Ebay's own (if existent) security claims. It could also be that German Police do know how to break Skype's supposed encryption (which uses AES and RSA according to Wikipedia) but are in the middle of a disinformation campaign to get the public to believe something that is false.

Quote:
Spyware computer searches are illegal in Germany, where people are sensitive about police surveillance due to the history of the Nazis' Gestapo secret police and the former East German Stasi.
Too bad it's not illegal in the USA -- as the US government has used spyware on its citizens computers in the past to gain encryption pass phrases. I guess us Americans just love and trust the police and government with all our hearts,brains,souls,etc.

Quote:
Ziercke said they were not asking Skype to divulge its encryption keys or leave "back doors open" for German and other country's law enforcement authorities.
German Police (BKA) have, in the past, ordered specific closed source 'anonymity' softwares (e.g. Java Anon Proxy) to include back doors/ enable spying by their government.

With all that said, I have to admit there is no FOSS voice chat solution, that I know of, that is similar to Skype in terms of its supposed security.

Edit: I have just learned of Zfone. It is a free and open source (dual licensed) and sits on top of your existing VoIP software. Binaries are available for Linux, Windows (only XP) and Mac OS X.

Unfortunately it is in its beta stages and for some reason Phil ZImmernann makes you register (and agree to some garbage) before you are able to download the source or binaries -- for now. :( I wouldn't use it until the final version is out -- which is supposed to be released under GPL.

Last edited by RU Still Down? : 11-25-2007 at 12:15 PM.
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Gandalf says
11-27-2007, 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RU Still Down? View Post
It could also be that German Police do know how to break Skype's supposed encryption (which uses AES and RSA according to Wikipedia) but are in the middle of a disinformation campaign to get the public to believe something that is false.
Wow dude, sounds like you are paranoid. Not that you shouldn't be... ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RU Still Down? View Post
Too bad it's not illegal in the USA -- as the US government has used spyware on its citizens computers in the past to gain encryption pass phrases.
Actually, installing spyware without permission is illegal inside the USA. The trouble is, most users are too stupid to pay attention to the long End User License Agreements (EULA) that come with every little utility, toolbar, widget and application they install. It's too damn easy for them to slip some wording into something like, say, Google Toolbar for example, that gives them permission to do the spyware thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RU Still Down? View Post
I I guess us Americans just love and trust the police and government with all our hearts,brains,souls,etc.
I don't trust the government that much; I just don't think they are that competent to pull something like that off. Have you been to the DMV lately? :D

As for tapping, maybe the German police should check out Peter Cox's SIPtap. Cox has created a program that can be installed via a trojan or at the ISP level and record VoIP conversations as a WAV file. I'm not sure if it would work with Skype or not, but it sounds like this nut may not be so hard to crack after all?

Of course, the moral of this tale for all of us users is easy: Don't say anything you wouldn't want Big Brother to hear.
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RU Still Down? says
11-27-2007, 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
Wow dude, sounds like you are paranoid. Not that you shouldn't be... ;)Actually, installing spyware without permission is illegal inside the USA. The trouble is, most users are too stupid to pay attention to the long End User License Agreements (EULA)
You're ignorant of the facts. I'm not talking about bull**** EULAs put out by corporations on proprietary software. I'm talking about the US government coming over to your house (for whatever reason -- maybe they think you're a criminal) -- or injecting spyware executables inside downloads -- and installing spyware on your box. They HAVE done this before! There is no permission asked. none. This spyware is not installed to spy on your unencrypted internet traffic -- all of the tubes in the US (and other countries) are already tapped by various federal agencies (NSA, FBI) They install key loggers (spyware) so they can spy on your encrypted communications!

I'm not talking about "ALEX JONES"-type conspiracies either. This is factual information that can be pulled from reliable/main stream news agencies. It has also been defended by the US governments as legitimate: United States v. Scarfo (Key-Logger Case)

Quote:
Spyware computer searches are illegal in Germany, where people are sensitive about police surveillance due to the history of the Nazis' Gestapo secret police and the former East German Stasi.
So, as you can clearly see from this quote and the above case file, the US government is engaging in practices that are illegal for the Germany government to engage in because those actions are reminiscent of the Nazi Gestapo and East German Stasi. What does that say about the current US Government?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
I just don't think they are that competent to pull something like that off. Have you been to the DMV lately? :D
Yes I've been to the DMV -- but remember it's not run by the federal government. Its run by the state and city governments -- which are too stupid to even decide weather to increase sin taxes or allow more casinos. The FBI and NSA (Federal Agencies in the USA) already have boxes installed at all major data centers that can spy on unencrypted data. The telecommunication companies that allow this to happen might even be immune to any legal actions for assisting the federal government in spying. There's nothing left to pull. It has already happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
As for tapping, maybe the German police should check out Peter Cox's SIPtap. Cox has created a program that can be installed via a trojan or at the ISP level and record VoIP conversations as a WAV file. I'm not sure if it would work with Skype or not, but it sounds like this nut may not be so hard to crack after all?
SIPtap is intended only for unencrypted communications. As you can clearly see from the article (if you even bothered to read it) the German government (according to their own statements) isn't capable of spying on encrypted VoIP packets from Skype (which enables encrypted communications on default). Plus SIPtap is only capable of processing data from non-Skype (aka only softwares that use the Session Initiation Protocol) softwares. Skype uses a proprietary (nonstandard, closed) method of communication.


The article isn't speaking of unencrypted communications -- which are already spied on by various governments worldwide (throughly documented-- just look). It's talking about how the German Police are saying that they cannot break Skype's encryption scheme.

My previous comments were related to how the German government is reluctant to engage in some activities (spy-software) that have already been engaged in by the US government. They are even reluctant to engage in actions similar to their previous actions (Java Anon Proxy incident).
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Jeff says
11-27-2007, 12:33 PM
Good discussion! I think Gandalf is technically correct about installing spyware/keyloggers/et al without permission being illegal. The article you reference indicates that the DEA received a warrant from the judge before doing so (same as for most wiretaps here, too).

Does that mean the USA always follows their own rules? Are the rules fair in the first place? Probably not. As they say, power corrupts. But then, is there any government that doesn't have problems?
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